Generic AVR Devices

[dlh]

Don,

Is there a bootloader available for the generic AVR devices?

[dkinzer]

Is there a bootloader available for the generic AVR devices?

Yes, at least for those devices that support bootloading. With the v4.0.0 installer there is a directory named zboot that contains source and build files. The updated documentation has a section discussing the ZBasic Bootloader. You can also choose not to use a bootloader, in which case you'll use a device programmer (e.g. Atmel AVRISP MkII) to load your application onto the device. Of course, you also need such a programmer to flash the bootloader onto the device.

We may eventually offer devices with the ZBasic bootloader already installed.

[dlh]

That's a very impressive bit of work, Don. And it should dovetail nicely with the Arduino compatible system boards & shields I've designed for YourDuino.com. Thanks.

[liam.zbasic]

Congratulations. Arguably you are now competing with BASCOM, FastAVR, etc., although your VisualBasic is far superior. For me, just as impressive is the Zbasic documentation - I find it comprehensive, all-inclusive and highly organized. I've looked at several including Leaflabs, RaspberryPi, Corridium, BeagleBone, etc., and they can learn a few things on this website.

Questions...

How does the compiler license prevent an entity like Sparkfun from producing a ZX device at a reduced price compared to this website?

You'll get asked this eventually so I'll ask it. Do you plan on expanding the compiler to include 32bit devices? To compete with the imminent Arduino 32bit "Due"?

This is a long shot question, but what do you think of Python as the programming language for microcontrollers?

[dkinzer]

How does the compiler license prevent an entity like Sparkfun from producing a ZX device at a reduced price compared to this website?

The Generic Target License entitles one individual to use the ZBasic compiler to produce applications for a generic target. It can be irrevocably transferred to another individual on request and a replacement license will then be issued for the transferee.

It is true that someone could produce ZX device hardware clones but they wouldn't contain the ZX bootloader (different from the Generic AVR ZBasic-compatible bootloader) and, therefore, the free ZBasic compiler couldn't be used to produce applications for them. The producer could install the ZBasic-compatible bootloader on the hardware but the buyer would still need their own Generic Target License in order to build applications for it.

Do you plan on expanding the compiler to include 32bit devices?

We're looking at other possible target devices. We have nothing specific to announce at this time.

[W]hat do you think of Python as the programming language for microcontrollers?

I have not used Python very much and I haven't thought about what advantages it might afford when stripped down to run on a microcontroller.

[liam.zbasic]

The producer could install the ZBasic-compatible bootloader on the hardware but the buyer would still need their own Generic Target License in order to build applications for it.

Yes, I'm with you now. This arrangement will definitely save money for customers like myself money. I have seven ZX-40 and three ZX-328 devices - if I do that again, the compiler is the cheapest route and I have more options with ATMEL chips.

Do you plan on offering breakout boards for all the Appendix-B chips?

Separately, if I wanted to mass produce a widget using blank ATMEL chips with ZBasic programs using your compiler, do you require a royalty?

[dkinzer]

Do you plan on offering breakout boards for all the Appendix-B chips?

We have no such plans. We may offer some chips with pre-installed bootloaders but no specific plans are in place for that. One issue, of course, is that the bootloader must be compiled for a particular operating frequency. The relatively low cost of an AVR programmer ($35 for an Atmel ATAVRISP2 at Digi-Key, for example) and the fact that you can use an Arduino to program (many) AVR chips may make it unnecessary to provide the service.

Separately, if I wanted to mass produce a widget using blank ATMEL chips with ZBasic programs using your compiler, do you require a royalty?

No royalty is required whether you choose to distribute a compiled application in binary form (.zxb or .hex file) or installed on a supported device. Use of the ZBasic-compatible bootloader for generic target devices is also royalty-free.

[stevech]

This is a long shot question, but what do you think of Python as the programming language for microcontrollers?

Here's a comment from the peanut gallery on this... I evaluated use of a very nice piece of hardware from a major SCADA communications company - it bridges cellular, ethernet, and 802.15.4 devices. The product's OS is proprietary and supports ONLY Python as an interpreter for applications. No way to use C/C++ or equivalent. The CPU is a relatively fast 16/32 bit oddball but similar to ARM7.

After great consideration, the Python (interpreter) was an order of magnitude too slow to undertake common embedded systems operations in the world of 10-100mSec events. I concluded that Python has no role in embedded system unless the app can stand the bytecode interpreter overhead.

[liam.zbasic]

Is the License product actually the compiler software or just a license key? If the Compiler is actually the free download from the ZBasic homepage, does this mean the License product works in perpetuity?

[dkinzer]

Is the License product actually the compiler software or just a license key?

The license product is a key that enables generic target device functionality for AVRs.

If the Compiler is actually the free download from the ZBasic homepage, does this mean the License product works in perpetuity?

The purchased license key enables the current version and does not expire. We have no specific plans to charge a fee for major upgrades or new functionality (e.g. a new class of target devices) but that may change in the future.

[liam.zbasic]

The purchased license key enables the current version and does not expire.

Just want to verify that if a typical compiler update becomes available as they already do in the course of a year (barring "major" updates), the license key will still apply, correct? What if I purchase a new computer, does that count as a "transfer"?

We have no specific plans to charge a fee for major upgrades or new functionality (e.g. a new class of target devices) but that may change in the future.

Regarding "target devices", why wasn't a 32bit device included? Will it eventually?

[dkinzer]

Just want to verify that if a typical compiler update becomes available as they already do in the course of a year (barring "major" updates), the license key will still apply, correct?

Yes.

What if I purchase a new computer, does that count as "transfer"?

No. You can use the license key on as many computers a you wish but only for use by the licensee. You can't install the license key on 10 computers in your company for use by 10 different people - each individual user must have their own individualized license key.

A transfer is somewhat akin to selling a music CD or DVD when you no longer want to use it. After you sell a CD or DVD, you're no longer entitled to use any copies that you may have made of it. The same idea applies to a license key transfer.

Regarding "target devices", why wasn't a 32bit device included? Will it eventually?

It was a major effort to implement generic target capability. It will take additional effort to support other families of devices and supporting a 32-bit flat memory model will require yet more effort.

[liam.zbasic]

It was a major effort to implement generic target capability. It will take additional effort to support other families of devices and supporting a 32-bit flat memory model will require yet more effort.

Definitely an impressive effort. Hopefully you are considering 32bit devices because targeting more 8bit/16bit chips seems unnecessary, IMHO. The 32bit boot/board market can not be ignored. The imminent release of the Arduino 32bit "Due" is sure to raise even more sustained awareness, more so than the overly hyped RaspberryPi.

On a side note, it's a wonder BasicX was able to compete with ZBasic up to this point. With the Compiler license, the outcome will be interesting.

[liam.zbasic]

I concluded that Python has no role in embedded system unless the app can stand the bytecode interpreter overhead.

What does "bytecode interpreter overhead" mean? Speed and memory?

Over the years I have programmed engineering solutions in Basic, Pbasic, Visual-Basic, Fortran, Pascal, Cobol, C, C++, Matlab, Nastran DMAP, Patran PCL, etc. For me, for engineering solutions, especially in stability & feedback control, the best language in terms of simplicity, conciseness, portability and readability is Matlab. It has taken the aerospace industry by storm. Fortran is in its death throws. What requires weeks or months to code in Fortran, one can do in hours or days in Matlab. The next best language is Python. In both, the ability to program complex matrix operations (e.g., Kalman filter) is shockingly simple. I'd like to see Python for microcontrollers. The RaspberryPi, although really a computer ($25 - $35), has started or at least popularized that trend. Too bad that board is more hype than reality.

[stevech]

I concluded that Python has no role in embedded system unless the app can stand the bytecode interpreter overhead.

What does "bytecode interpreter overhead" mean? Speed and memory?

Over the years I have programmed engineering solutions in Basic, Pbasic, Visual-Basic, Fortran, Pascal, Cobol, C, C++, Matlab, Nastran DMAP, Patran PCL, etc. For me, for engineering solutions, especially in stability & feedback control, the best language in terms of simplicity, conciseness, portability and readability is Matlab.

bytecode interpreter = speed reduction.

I agree with your comments and I have a history similar, though my first 10 years or so was mostly assembly language for mini-computers like PDP-11 and DG Nova.

But this thread is in the context of a humble 8 bit microprocessor.

ZBasic is a terrific tool for this target.